How do I know that your god is The One, True God: Q9?

The following is part of a Series called Conversation with a Deconverter.

Dionysos riding a panther, mosaic floor in the...

Dionysos riding a panther, mosaic floor in the ‘House of Dionysos’ at Pella, late 4th century BC, Pella, Archaeological Museum. (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

Question Number 9

About The Misinformation Effect: The Power of Suggestion

People’s perception of events, that is, their reliability as a witness, can be manipulated by superficial artifacts (appearances). The most common manipulation of appearance is language. By using certain verbs and adjectives, you can influence one’s testimony of fact. In addition, by introducing through our Socratic questions details that did not occur or are not true we can increase the likelihood of distorting (or shifting) one’s view of reality. Academics have operationally defined this as the Misinformation Effect. Studies have consistently shown that the memory of human beings is considerably influenced by the mere choice of words used by others to describe an event. In one study a video of vehicle test crash showed the impact of an SUV into another car at 25 mph. However, when persons observing the video were asked to estimate the speed of the vehicle they consistently overstated it, averaging a response of somewhere around 34 mph. This study, “Reconstruction of Automobile Destruction: An example of the Interaction Between Language and Memory” by Elizabeth F. Loftus and John C. Palmer, also included observations of how people were influenced by the mere description of the event before viewing. When the word “smashed” was substituted for “hit” the numbers changed to over 40 mph. In fact, several verbs were used and the more dramatic the verb, the greater the exaggeration of speed. The very nature of the question can produce peripheral, false memories. If one poses a question about the event and delays that question until some time after the event is observed, say, one week, essential facts of the story themselves can be altered by simple suggestion.

From Euripides’ The Bacchae, Dramatis Personae

DIONYSUS: divine son of Zeus and Semele, also called Bromius or Bacchus.

Turning water to wine

They rubbed refreshing sleep out of their eyes,

[690] and stood up straight there—a marvelous sight, to see such an orderly arrangement, women young and old and still unmarried girls. First, they let their hair loose down their shoulders, tied up the fawn skins (some had untied the knots to loosen up the chords). Then around those skins they looped some snakes, who licked the women’s cheeks. Some held young gazelles or wild wolf cubs and fed them on their own white milk, the ones

[700] who’d left behind at home a new-born child whose breasts were still swollen full of milk. They draped themselves with garlands from oak trees, ivy and flowering yew. Then one of them, taking a thyrsus, struck a rock with it, and water gushed out, fresh as dew. Another, using her thyrsus, scraped the ground. At once, the god [Dionysos] sent fountains of wine up from the spot. All those who craved white milk to drink just scratched the earth with their fingertips— it came out in streams. From their ivy wands

[710] thick sweet honey dripped. Oh, if you’d been there, if you’d seen this, you’d come with reverence to that god whom you criticize so much.

Death and resurrection of Dionysis

From Commodius XII.—Father Liber—Bacchus.

Ye yourselves say that Father Liber was assuredly twice begotten. First of all he was born in India of Proserpine and Jupiter, and waging war against the Titans, when his blood was shed, he expired even as one of mortal men. Again, restored from his death, in another womb Semele conceived him again of Jupiter, a second Maia, whose womb being divided, he is taken away near to birth from his dead mother, and as a nursling is given to be nourished to Nisus. From this being twice born he is called Dionysus; and his religion is falsely observed in vanity; and they celebrate his orgies such that now they themselves seem to be either foolhardy or burlesquers of Mimnermomerus. They conspire in evil; they practise beforehand with pretended heat, that they may deceive others into saying that a deity is present. Hence you manifestly see men living a life like his, violently excited with the wine which he himself had pressed out; they have given him divine honour in the midst of their drunken excess.

And another source relating the death and resurrection of Dionysis by Origen Book IV, XVI – XVII

CHAP. XVI.

For there are different appearances, as it were, of the Word, according as He shows Himself to each one of those who come to His doctrine; and this in a manner corresponding to the condition of him who is just becoming a disciple, or of him who has made a little progress, or of him who has advanced further, or of him who has already nearly attained to virtue, or who has even already attained it. And hence it is not the case, as Celsus and those like him would have it, that our God was transformed, and ascending the lofty mountain, showed that His real appearance was something different, and far more excellent than what those who remained below, and were unable to follow Him on high, beheld. For those below did not possess eyes capable of seeing the transformation of the Word into His glorious and more divine condition. But with difficulty were they able to receive Him as He was; so that it might be said of Him by those who were unable to behold His more excellent nature: “We saw Him, and He had no form nor comeliness; but His form was mean, and inferior to that of the sons of men.” And let these remarks be an answer to the suppositions of Celsus, who does not understand the changes or transformations of Jesus, as related in the histories, nor His mortal and immortal nature.

CHAP. XVII.

But will not those narratives, especially when they are understood in their proper sense, appear far more worthy of respect than the story that Dionysus was deceived by the Titans, and expelled from the throne of Jupiter, and torn in pieces by them, and his remains being afterwards put together again, he returned as it were once more to life, and ascended to heaven? Or are the Greeks at liberty to refer such stories to the doctrine of the soul, and to interpret them figuratively, while the door of a consistent explanation, and one everywhere in accord and harmony with the writings of the Divine Spirit, who had His abode in pure souls, is closed against us? Celsus, then, is altogether ignorant of the purpose of our writings, and it is therefore upon his own acceptation of them that he casts discredit, and not upon their real meaning; whereas, if he had reflected on what is appropriate to a soul which is to enjoy an everlasting life, and on the opinion which we are to form of its essence and principles, he would not so have ridiculed the entrance of the immortal into a mortal body, which took place not according to the metempsychosis of Plato, but agreeably to another and higher view of things. And he would have observed one “descent,” distinguished by its great benevolence, undertaken to convert (as the Scripture mystically terms them) the “lost sheep of the house of Israel,” which had strayed down from the mountains, and to which the Shepherd is said in certain parables to have gone down, leaving on the mountains those “which had not strayed.”

Born on December 25

In Macrobius’ Saturnalia Book 1 we see that Dionysis is not only born on December 25 but we have an explanation for that particular date:

In latin:

Sed licet illo prius adserto, eundem esse Apollinem ac solem, edoctoque postea ipsum esse Liberum patrem qui Apollo est, nulla ex his dubitatio sit Solem ac Liberum patrem eiusdem numinis habendum: absolute tamen hoc argumentis liquidioribus astruetur. 8 In sacris enim haec religiosi archani observatio tenetur, ut sol, cum in supero, id est in diurno, hemisphaerio est, Apollo vocitetur: cum in infero, id est nocturno, Dionysus, qui est Liber pater, habeatur. 9 Item Liberi patris simulachra partim puerili aetate partim iuvenis fingunt: praeterea barbata p172specie, senili quoque, uti Graeci eius quem βασσαρέα, item quem Βρισέα appellant, et ut in Campania Neapolitani celebrant Ἥβωνα cognominantes. 10 Hae autem aetatum diversitates ad solem referuntur, ut parvulus videatur hiemali solstitio, qualem Aegyptii proferunt ex adyto die certa, quod tunc brevissimo die veluti parvus et infans videatur: exinde autem procedentibus augmentis aequinoctio vernali similiter atque adolescentis adipiscitur vires, figuraque iuvenis ornatur: postea statuitur eius aetas plenissima effigie barbae solstitio aestivo, quo tempore summum sui consequitur augmentum: exinde per diminutiones veluti senescenti quarta forma deus figuratur. 11 Item in Thracia eundem haberi p173solem atque Liberum accipimus, quem illi Sebadium nuncupantes magnifica religione celebrant, ut Alexander scribit: eique deo in colle Zilmisso aedes dicata est specie rotunda, cuius medium interpatet tectum. Rotunditas aedis monstrat huiusce sideris speciem: summoque tecto lumen admittitur, ut appareat solem cuncta vertice summo lustrare lucis inmissu, et quia oriente eo universa patefiunt. 12 Orpheus quoque solem volens intellegi ait inter cetera:

Translates crudely as:

But it is lawful freedom of that before, that he is the sun and that Apollo, Bacchus and edoctoque afterwards that he was the father of Apollo, who is, no doubt some of them of the same is the father of the gods, the sun, and his children were to be considered: liquid and molten in an absolute sense, however, this astruetur arguments. Of a religious is bound to the observance of the secrets of these 8 For in the sacred, as the sun, when he is in the upper, ie, in a day, he is the hemisphere, Apollo addresses: After the I infer that there the night that is to say, Dionysus, who is the father Liber, there is to be. 9 Also, some images of father Bacchus childhood partly mold young, besides bearded p172specie age too, as the Greeks of whom βασσαρέα likewise whom Βρισέα call, and to celebrate in Campania Naples Ἥβωνα cognominantes. 10 These differences in the periods referred to the sun, see the winter solstice as a child, such as the Egyptians, produce from the shrine on a fixed day, and the next day a little bit of a child is seen, then further increase the spring equinox, like the young man gains strength, shape young adorned: later determines its lifetime fullest portrait beard summer solstice, a time when most of their gains increase from the fourth form of the god symbolized by a decrease as getting old. 11 Also available in Thrace p173solem and receive Free, whom they call the Majestic Sebadium celebrate religion, as Alexander writes, and is dedicated specifically to the hill shrine Zilmisso round, whose mean interpatet roof. Rotundity of the room shows the star of this show: Chief roof light is allowed to appear on the top of the sun light, letting the survey, and for the whole east disclosed. 12 Orpheus, too, the sun, wishing to be understood that says among other things:

And in the Hymns of Orpheus (so-called Orphic Hymns) Number 29 we read that:

To Dionysis

The Fumigation from Storax. Dionysos I call, loud-sounding and divine [my emphasis], fanatic God [my emphasis], a two-fold shape is thine: Thy various names and attributes I sing, O, first-born [my emphasis], thrice begotten [my emphasis], Bacchic king [my emphasis]: Rural, ineffable, two-form’d, obscure, two-horn’d, with ivy crown’d, euion, pure. Bull-fac’d, and martial, bearer of the vine [my emphasis], endu’d with counsel prudent [Eubouleos] and divine: Triennial, whom the leaves of vines adorn, of Jove [Zeus] and Proserpine [Persephoneia], occultly born (born of divine insemmination) [my emphasis] Immortal [my emphasis] dæmon, hear my suppliant voice, give me in blameless plenty to rejoice; And listen gracious to my mystic pray’r, surrounded with thy choir of nurses fair.

“And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.”

Early Church Father and Saint Justin Martyr (c. 150 AD/CE)

Pyramid Texts (Inscriptions in stone)

After death, the king must first rise from his tomb. Utterance 373 describes.

Oho! Oho! Rise up, O Teti!

Take your head, collect your bones,

Gather your limbs, shake the earth from your flesh!

Take your bread that rots not, your beer that sours not,

Stand at the gates that bar the common people!

The gatekeeper comes out to you, he grasps your hand,

Takes you into heaven, to your father Geb.

He rejoices at your coming, gives you his hands,

Kisses you, caresses you,

Sets you before the spirits, the imperishable stars…

The hidden ones worship you,

The great ones surround you,

The watchers wait on you,

Barley is threshed for you,

Emmer is reaped for you,

Your monthly feasts are made with it,

Your half-month feasts are made with it,

As ordered done for you by Geb, your father,

Rise up, O Teti, you shall not die!

Is it more likely that belief in Dionysis as the Son of God was due to the Misinformation Effect or is it more likely that Dionysis is The One, True God?

– kk

Go to Question Number Ten

The relationships between the three synoptic g...

The relationships between the three synoptic gospels. Source: A Statistical Study of the Synoptic Problem by A.M. Horore (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

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13 comments
  1. sgtgiveashit said:

    so now you dont want to respond to my posting ?

    • Hey – what? I didn’t realize you posted anything, sorry – kk

      • Randy said:

        that was my bad I wasn’t fully awake , not your fault. Sorry

  2. Randy said:

    So your saying all these events around the world were fabricated and the news reports are as well ?
    I’m well aware of the way people interpret things. I’ve been involved in the telling of a story by seven people individually and hearing it come back completely different at the end. We can maybe credit the man with a few of these events. But how odd is it with the way it all aligns with scripture. And lets not forget the actually authentic results seen in churches through prayer ?
    Case in point. We have a young lady who is going to the middle east as a missionary into Turkey, and other dangerous places to spread the word. She had to have a medical exam and problems were found with her blood test and she was scheduled for a battery of tests to find the cause. Those problems were no where to be seen when she went back for the tests. There was some intense prayer put over her before then.
    I’ve got a friend who’s an atheist and he gets offended when ever I send him something that’s related to religion. Other times he will try to explain it away . Why is it so hard for you to believe that there’s actually a superior being who created this earth? why isn’t there other planets out there with beings on them ?
    We are the only intelligent creatures on the plant who are capable of creative thought. With a variety of languages. Who can actually work to improve our lives and destroy others upon impulse.
    This is the only planet know to support life of any type yet people refuse there’s a greater force at work that made this all possible.
    Different cultures call it something different but it all boils down to the same being in my view. Man will cause the destruction of this world with his evil because he refuses to accept that Satan is alive and thriving here.
    My question to you is which side of the fence do you want to be on when it all comes to pass ?

  3. Hey Randy,

    “So your saying all these events around the world were fabricated and the news reports are as well ?
    I’m well aware of the way people interpret things. I’ve been involved in the telling of a story by seven people individually and hearing it come back completely different at the end. We can maybe credit the man with a few of these events. But how odd is it with the way it all aligns with scripture. And lets not forget the actually authentic results seen in churches through prayer ?”

    Well, I’m sure there are, but the question is how would I know these things? What if I pray and nothing happens?

    “Case in point. We have a young lady who is going to the middle east as a missionary into Turkey, and other dangerous places to spread the word. She had to have a medical exam and problems were found with her blood test and she was scheduled for a battery of tests to find the cause. Those problems were no where to be seen when she went back for the tests. There was some intense prayer put over her before then.”

    I have no idea why that happened, but I’d suspect the answer is not supernatural.

    “I’ve got a friend who’s an atheist and he gets offended when ever I send him something that’s related to religion. Other times he will try to explain it away . Why is it so hard for you to believe that there’s actually a superior being who created this earth?”

    Well, if you read these questions I think why I don’t believe will become very clear.

    “why isn’t there other planets out there with beings on them ?”

    I don’t know.

    “We are the only intelligent creatures on the plant who are capable of creative thought. With a variety of languages. Who can actually work to improve our lives and destroy others upon impulse.
    This is the only planet know to support life of any type yet people refuse there’s a greater force at work that made this all possible.
    Different cultures call it something different but it all boils down to the same being in my view. Man will cause the destruction of this world with his evil because he refuses to accept that Satan is alive and thriving here.
    My question to you is which side of the fence do you want to be on when it all comes to pass ?”

    Well, that’s the point of the questions. I’m hoping someone like yourself will answer them so I can figure out which side of the fence, which county and which pasture to be on; if that makes any sense. There are thousands of them.
    – kk

    • Randy said:

      You wouldn’t know these things because you have no knowledge of them since you don’t attend services. And just because I’m telling you these things your own doubt will discount the validity of it. Worshiping The God honestly and praying for the right things will yield results. But in order for this all to happen God has to know your heart and if you refuse him to know you then he won’t. Remember we were given free choice. We dont have to know Him but in the same respects when that day comes and you actually find out the truth. What your going to hear is “I dont know you” Why ? because you failed to take the simplest of steps to know God. We can testify to you constantly and you can pretend to go through the motions. But until you open your mind and your heart to god you will never experience the love He so wants to give to you. But thats the choice you have.
      Do you honestly believe we just crawled out of the oceans ? why are the oceans here and not on any other planet ?
      I found what I was looking for http://www.bbcmorehead.org/index.php?id=493
      This doesn’t prove my god is the right god, just that there actually is a god. We know from Greek mythology that the world was inhabited with gods of all kinds if we are to believe in Greek mythology and the stories they tell. Even the
      Bible gives light to some of the stories.
      The Bible also tell us that in end times there will be a greater following of Christ.
      https://www.google.com/search?source=ig&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS250&q=growth+of+christianity&oq=growth+of+christianity&gs_l=igoogle.3..0l10.506.7008.0.7745.21.10.0.9.9.0.178.1163.4j6.10.0…0.0…1ac.1.s-pdPXHS5XI

      Apparently all religions are experiencing a large growth as is expected in our troubling times and predicted in the Christian Bibles.
      http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-fastest-growing.htm

      • Hey Randy,
        “You wouldn’t know these things because you have no knowledge of them since you don’t attend services. And just because I’m telling you these things your own doubt will discount the validity of it.”
        Well, but that’s my point. Which service would I attend? Obviously I can’t attend every service that exists. That would be thousands. What I need to know first is which god is The One, True God. Once I know that the problem becomes manageable. It would be impossible to try every religion round-robin until I just happened upon The One, True God. So, that’s why I’m asking knowledgeable people like yourself.
        Surely, I would think, perhaps incorrectly, that each adherent would be able to answer that question quite easily. Otherwise, one could be worshipping or following an imposter god, right? So, before I can attend a service I need to know which one to attend, right?
        As for discounting gods, I do not discount them, I only ask first which one is The One, True God. If you can answer that I will go to service immediately because, after all, I do want to follow the legitimate authority and not an imposter. I will and have conceeded that a god might exist, for the sake of discussion. The only question is which one is the real McCoy?
        I’ve only failed to take the simplest step to know “God” because I don’t know who he/she/it is. If I could identify that god I’d be happy to get to know him/her/it.
        As for our origins, I don’t know where we came from, whether out of the oceans or from somewhere else. All I need to know is which god is The One, True God. I’ll check your links in a sec.
        I think if you focus on these questions and their answers we might be able to figure this out. I sincerely believe that. Part of being a sincere atheist is being open-minded and I’m not fixed to any one belief.
        – kk

        • Randy said:

          KK you make things far too complicated for yourself. telling you to attend a service isnt going to prove anything to you. If you cant go into any service with an open mind and open heart you get nothing. But I can almost assure you that if you honestly are seeking answers to this mystery you’ve taken on about God. And you sit in a quiet spot and release all your doubts about there being a God. Meditation basically, and speak from your heart for answers you will get them. maybe not right then but in time. And Im sure you wont have to wait long.

          • “If you cant go into any service with an open mind and open heart you get nothing.”
            Well, of course I can go into a service with an open mind. That’s not the question, though. *what* service would I attend? Would you want to attend the Church of Satan all your life? Or any other imposter?
            – kk

            • Randy said:

              Now your just being ridiculous, I’ll keep you in my prayers KK and hopefully you will take some time, alone to seek the answers your after.

              • Hey Randy – Its not a silly question at all. Look at it from my point of view. That’s the whole point of my questions. – kk

                • Randy said:

                  The church I attend and the God I worship recognizes Satan as the god of evil. any church that worships evil is pretty clear about it just as a church that worships Christ is also clear about it. They also follow scripture in the Holly Bible that hasn’t been changed since it was decided upon as the word of god centuries ago.
                  Thats where you start. find a church that welcomes you and follows the teachings of Christ and should the church wave from the Bible in their teachings then you got two choices. You call them on it or you walk out. But be warned its not an easy path to walk. atheism much easier because theres no guidance for life. No belief in an after life. The general consensus is we have by some strange occurrence in nature were created and became the superior life form on earth over all other life forms.
                  Do you actually buy into that ?

  4. MIa VanHouten said:

    Hey Kir,
    This one was amazing. We’ve all agreed that the answer must be the same. There’s no way out of that. So, we all agree that belief in the fact that Dionysis (Dionysus or Bacchus) being the Son of God is more likely due to the Misinformation Effect than it is the fact that Dionysis is The One, True God.
    Mia

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